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[新聞] Jon S. von Tetzchner 的血淚控訴

看板Browsers (瀏覽器)作者時間8年前 (2017/09/05 13:53), 8年前編輯推噓44(44推 0噓 131→)
留言175則, 30人參與, 最新討論串1/1
My friends at Google: it is time to return to not being evil | Vivaldi Blog 我的Google朋友啊：別再幹骯髒事了 https://vivaldi.com/blog/google-return-to-not-being-evil/ I have known Google longer than most. At Opera, we were the first to add their search into the browser interface, enabling it directly from the search box and the address field. At that time, Google was an up-and-coming geeky company. I remember vividly meeting with Google’s co-founder Larry Page, his relaxed dress code and his love for the Danger device, which he played with throughout our meeting. Later, I met with the other co-founder of Google, Sergey Brin, and got positive vibes. My first impression of Google was that it was a likeable company. 我跟Google共事的比誰都久。在Opera，我們是第一個把Google的搜尋服務加 入瀏覽器介面的。那時的Google是個成長中的迷人公司。我還清楚的記得跟 Google的共同創辦人Larrt Page見面的時候，那輕鬆的裝扮在會議上把玩著的 危險裝置？稍候我見了另一個共同創辦人Sergey Brin，我們的氣氛很愉快。真 是個可愛的公司啊～那是Google給我的第一映像。 Our cooperation with Google was a good one. Integrating their search into Opera helped us deliver a better service to our users and generated revenue that paid the bills. We helped Google grow, along with others that followed in our footsteps and integrated Google search into their browsers. 我們與Google曾有段美好的時光。整合搜尋讓Opera可以提供更好的服務給使 用者，還有得到了營收。我們以及其他瀏覽器跟進者，整合了Google搜尋， 幫助了Google成長。 However, then things changed. Google increased their proximity with the Mozilla foundation. They also introduced new services such as Google Docs. These services were great, gained quick popularity, but also exposed the darker side of Google. Not only were these services made to be incompatible with Opera, but also encouraged users to switch their browsers. I brought this up with Sergey Brin, in vain. For millions of Opera users to be able to access these services, we had to hide our browser’s identity. The browser sniffing situation only worsened after Google started building their own browser, Chrome. 然而，後來一切都變了。Google拉近了跟Mozilla基金會的距離。後來又發表 了Google Doc。這些優質的服務得到了廣大的歡迎，卻也顯露出Google的黑 暗面。這些服務不僅被弄成不相容Opera，甚至還要求使用者更換瀏覽器。我 跟Sergey Brin反應了此事，但只是徒勞。為了讓幾百萬的使用者得以使用這些 服務，我們必須隱藏瀏覽器的身分。後來，在Google開始打造自己的Chrome 瀏覽器後，情況變得更糟了。 Now, we are making the Vivaldi browser. It is based on Chromium, an open- source project, led by Google and built on WebKit and KHTML. Using Google’s services should not call for any issues, but sadly, the reality is different. We still have to hide our identity when visiting services such as Google Docs. 目前，我們正打造了Vivaldi瀏覽器。他是基於Chromium，一個由Google主 導，建立於Webkit 和KHTML的開源計畫。用來上Google的服務應該不會有任 何問的了吧？但很遺憾，並非如此。我們仍必須隱藏瀏覽器身分來使用 Google的服務。 And now things have hit a new low. 如今，情況已經達到前所未見的惡況。 As the biggest online advertising company in the world, Google is often the first choice for businesses that want to promote their products or services on the Internet. Being excluded from using Google AdWords could be a major problem, especially for digital companies. 身為一個全球最大的線上廣告公司 ，Google一項都是企業網路行銷的首選。 被Google Adword排除在外可是很大的麻煩，尤其是對一個科技公司。 Recently, our Google AdWords campaigns were suspended without warning. This was the second time that I have encountered this situation. This time, however, timing spoke volumes. 最近，我們的Google AdWard廣告被無預警的下架。這已經是我們第二次遇到 這種事。而這次，敏感的時機表達了強烈的暗示。 I had several interviews where I voiced concerns about the data gathering and ad targeting practices – in particular, those of Google and Facebook. They collect and aggregate far too much personal information from their users. I see this as a very serious, democracy-threatening problem, as the vast targeting opportunities offered by Google and Facebook are not only good for very targeted marketing, but also for tailored propaganda. The idea of the Internet turning into a battlefield of propaganda is very far away from the ideal. 我曾數次在訪談中表達了對資料蒐集和針對性廣告行為的擔憂，尤其是 Google 和Facebook。他們蒐集了太多的個資。我認這對民主是個嚴重的威 脅，Google 和Facebook擁有的大量客群不僅有利針對性行銷和個別洗腦（求 正確翻法）。網際網路背離了其理想的理念，轉變成商業洗腦的戰場。 Two days after my thoughts were published in an article by Wired, we found out that all the campaigns under our Google AdWords account were suspended – without prior warning. Was this just a coincidence? Or was it deliberate, a way of sending us a message? 在我發表於Wired*的兩天後，我們發現所有我們在Google Adward下的帳號都 被停權了，沒有任何事前通知。這只是巧合嗎？或者是刻意的，某種傳達訊息 的方式？ When we reached out to Google to resolve the issue, we got a clarification masqueraded in the form of vague terms and conditions, some of which, they admitted themselves, were not a “hard” requirement. In exchange for being reinstated in Google’s ad network, their in-house specialists dictated how we should arrange content on our own website and how we should communicate information to our users. 當我們嘗試跟Google釐清問題時，得到了解釋 — 夾帶著一堆含糊不清的政策 條款，甚只有的並非硬性規定。為了回到Google廣告網路，內部專員指示我 們如何修改網站內容以及跟使用者表達訊息的方式。 We made effort to understand their explanations and to work with them on their various unreasonable demands (some of which they don’t follow themselves, by the way). After almost three months of back-and-forth, the suspension to our account has been lifted, but only when we bent to their requirements. 我們努力了解他們的解釋以及種種不合理的要求（對了，有的連他們自己都不 遵循）。這樣往來的三個月，我們屈服了他們的要求，帳號終於解鎖了。 A monopoly both in search and advertising, Google, unfortunately, shows that they are not able to resist the misuse of power. I am saddened by this makeover of a geeky, positive company into the bully they are in 2017. I feel blocking competitors on thin reasoning lends credence to claims of their anti- competitive practices. It is also fair to say that Google is now in a position where regulation is needed. I sincerely hope that they’ll get back to the straight and narrow. 搜尋和廣告的壟斷者Google，很不幸的，顯然無法停止濫用力量。我難的是... 這個曾是積極有魅力的公司變成了一個惡霸。我認為，用推託的理由來阻擋競 爭者正好證明了他們的反競爭行為。可以說現在的Google需要被管制。我真心希 望他們可以回到正軌。 * 這篇：https://www.wired.co.uk/article/jon-von-tetzchner-opera-facebook-google Written by Jon von Tetzchner -- "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say." --Edward Snowden -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 216.218.222.12 ※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Browsers/M.1504590813.A.913.html
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09/05 14:00, , 1F
這咖好意思講? 把北歐文化的精神賣掉
09/05 14:00, 1F
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09/05 14:00, , 2F
自己用Chromium 卻只想綁自家的登入帳號同步的拉基公司
09/05 14:00, 2F
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09/05 14:01, , 3F
而且為了罵google 連fx都批評了? fx可是所有主流瀏覽器中
09/05 14:01, 3F
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09/05 14:01, , 4F
最開源最沒私人企業文化的東西了
09/05 14:01, 4F
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09/05 14:02, , 5F
OP從以前就是把自己 User-Agent 模仿成IE 好意思講543
09/05 14:02, 5F
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09/05 14:03, , 6F
難怪基於Chromium開發 Vivaldi遠遠爛過Cent就算了
09/05 14:03, 6F
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09/05 14:04, , 7F
連小牌的Kinza都比它好用
09/05 14:04, 7F
第一次翻譯文章 有文意不對的請幫忙糾正
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09/05 14:24, , 8F
那邊並非批評Mozilla 在推出GC前Google阻擋Op放行Fx來打壓
09/05 14:24, 8F
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09/05 14:25, , 9F
市占 因為Opera同時也是廣告商 （難道我翻這麼爛 汗..
09/05 14:25, 9F
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09/05 14:30, , 10F
當然是阿.....打壓三小 就講了 UA問題都是opera自己搞得
09/05 14:30, 10F
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09/05 14:30, , 11F
而且他門被打壓還是因為IE-only就偽裝成IE先
09/05 14:30, 11F
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09/05 14:31, , 12F
Opera一直市占就是那幾% 問題完全是當初OP9之前是世界最
09/05 14:31, 12F
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09/05 14:32, , 13F
快的瀏覽器 後來輸了 然後後來大家學GC也是N周一版
09/05 14:32, 13F
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09/05 14:32, , 14F
opera沒競爭性 不要滿口胡扯 我自己就是舊版OP的愛用者
09/05 14:32, 14F
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09/05 15:02, , 15F
那個創辦人有夠倒楣 2011年6月就離開Opera公司
09/05 15:02, 15F
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09/05 15:02, , 16F
Opera被賣掉還要算到他頭上
09/05 15:02, 16F
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09/05 17:14, , 17F
我是不是跳到了不同的世界線
09/05 17:14, 17F
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09/05 17:37, , 18F
好激動
09/05 17:37, 18F
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09/05 17:57, , 19F
嗯 所以早就離開 不就是認同opera已經爛掉 那還罵三小...
09/05 17:57, 19F
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09/05 17:58, , 20F
做的爛出來哭餓搏版面.....
09/05 17:58, 20F
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09/05 18:17, , 21F
很好奇 服務不僅「被弄成不相容Opera」這段
09/05 18:17, 21F
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09/05 18:19, , 22F
所以是咕狗發現使用者用Opera就故意不讓他用Google的服務？
09/05 18:19, 22F
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09/05 18:52, , 23F
難怪從來沒用過google線上服務，就連地圖都是火狐比較順
09/05 18:52, 23F
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09/05 18:53, , 24F
變成平常用OP，查地圖或上ptt時就開火狐
09/05 18:53, 24F
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09/05 19:17, , 25F
/op /google 就可以看到很多討論
09/05 19:17, 25F
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09/05 19:55, , 26F
google evil也不是一兩天的事了
09/05 19:55, 26F
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09/05 20:23, , 27F
實話說 要完全離開Google已經不可能了
09/05 20:23, 27F
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09/05 20:24, , 28F
至於收集資料的問題，我想這不只Google而已
09/05 20:24, 28F
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09/05 20:24, , 29F
只能說相較之下 Google的服務品質已經算好
09/05 20:24, 29F
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09/05 20:26, , 30F
不過VV做的很成功啊，配色美感都很棒。
09/05 20:26, 30F
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09/05 20:33, , 31F
這幾套瀏覽器裝下來扣除Fx也只有VV有啊我用了不一樣的瀏覽
09/05 20:33, 31F
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09/05 20:33, , 32F
器的感覺，Cent和kinza就只感覺是GC功能多一些而已
09/05 20:33, 32F
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09/05 20:50, , 33F
以前Opera會無法使用Google的某些服務
09/05 20:50, 33F
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09/05 20:50, , 34F
好笑的是偽裝成別的瀏覽器就可以正常使用了
09/05 20:50, 34F
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09/05 21:08, , 35F
.....賣Opera是董事會的決定，關他屁事啊 =3=
09/05 21:08, 35F
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09/05 21:09, , 36F
Google搞別家瀏覽器早就不是新聞了，但因為是Google所以
09/05 21:09, 36F
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09/05 21:09, , 37F
一堆人都直接無視。以前IE搞特規就是MS該死。現在G社搞
09/05 21:09, 37F
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09/05 21:09, , 38F
壟斷就是Google好棒其他人去死 XD
09/05 21:09, 38F
還有 98 則推文
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09/07 11:08, , 137F
我說opera跟企鵝可是北歐人的驕傲 居然在台灣被這樣
09/07 11:08, 137F
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09/07 11:09, , 138F
軟廚寄生在捧 回到根本來講 請問google這麼邪惡
09/07 11:09, 138F
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09/07 11:10, , 139F
為啥 Vivaldi是採用GC的核心 然後自己還要另開帳號同步呢
09/07 11:10, 139F
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09/07 11:10, , 140F
自己掛人家皮肉 結果骨子裡不想用人家的同步 要自己收集
09/07 11:10, 140F
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09/07 11:10, , 141F
個資才是最棒的 讚
09/07 11:10, 141F
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09/07 12:10, , 142F
整串看下來 我還以為我在聽謝金燕的歌
09/07 12:10, 142F
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09/07 12:25, , 143F
其實看那篇文章的留言 感覺老譚蠻討厭咕狗的XDDD
09/07 12:25, 143F
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09/07 12:27, , 144F
然後部份舊O粉跟現V粉很討厭Google..看起來咕狗同步是無望了
09/07 12:27, 144F
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09/07 12:28, , 145F
用Chromium他們好像也不太願意 因為做個新核心要100人做5年
09/07 12:28, 145F
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09/07 12:29, , 146F
沒錢只好用Chromium核心
09/07 12:29, 146F
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09/07 12:55, , 147F
他說我提Lotus是丟臉這點就知道他什麼都不懂了啦
09/07 12:55, 147F
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09/07 12:55, , 148F
沒必要跟這種人認真
09/07 12:55, 148F
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09/07 13:03, , 149F
微軟邪惡了數十年，還是一堆人在用，google只是剛開始變微
09/07 13:03, 149F
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09/07 13:03, , 150F
軟，所以開始準備接罰單
09/07 13:03, 150F
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09/07 13:04, , 151F
微軟是寡占，google變獨佔
09/07 13:04, 151F
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09/07 13:39, , 152F
獨佔 XDDDDDD
09/07 13:39, 152F
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09/07 13:40, , 153F
某個只會吹edge的亂入也挺好笑的
09/07 13:40, 153F
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09/07 14:20, , 154F
沒辦法，改用duckduckgo一陣子，還是沒辦法跟Google比
09/07 14:20, 154F
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09/07 14:25, , 155F
倒是GC一定可以不要用，我跳回FX好幾年了 XD
09/07 14:25, 155F
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09/07 15:11, , 156F
fx滾fb很爽 chromium系就算了
09/07 15:11, 156F
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09/07 18:36, , 157F
Danger 是公司名，是當時最紅的「雲端手機」，
09/07 18:36, 157F
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09/07 18:38, , 158F
也就是微軟第一支自有品牌“Project Pink＂手機
09/07 18:38, 158F
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09/08 04:29, , 159F
沒開放格式的商業軟體 隨便舉個繪圖軟體都是好嗎 天兵在天
09/08 04:29, 159F
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09/08 04:30, , 160F
將前甘拜下風 微軟是在OS動手腳排他文書軟體 從沒因為不開
09/08 04:30, 160F
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09/08 04:30, , 161F
開放被罰款過 三件事可以講成一件各種平行時空讓我大開眼
09/08 04:30, 161F
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09/08 04:30, , 162F
界。chromium貢獻者又不只Google 講的好像他專屬似的 然後
09/08 04:30, 162F
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09/08 04:31, , 163F
Vv的同步功能都還沒上線 有人已經知道會蒐集個資啦？遇到
09/08 04:31, 163F
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09/08 04:31, , 164F
了擅長穿越的朋友呢！
09/08 04:31, 164F
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09/08 10:32, , 165F
這 你到底在講什麼 XDDDD
09/08 10:32, 165F
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09/08 11:48, , 166F
從Opera是創辦人被賣掉這點來看 我相信他是陰間的好兄弟
09/08 11:48, 166F
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09/08 11:54, , 167F
這篇就寫很明白了 Vv他們「窮到哭」
09/08 11:54, 167F
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09/08 11:54, , 168F
能掰出一大堆有的沒的 真的很神奇
09/08 11:54, 168F
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09/08 13:52, , 169F
而且真要講 Webkit最早是蘋果在推 後來才找Google
09/08 13:52, 169F
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09/08 13:53, , 170F
然後G社後來再Fork出一個Blink
09/08 13:53, 170F
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09/08 13:54, , 171F
抱歉更正 最早是KDE社群 後來蘋果拿去用才對
09/08 13:54, 171F
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09/10 02:22, , 172F
每個UA都是Mozilla 這有什麼好吵的 拿掉那七個英文字先
09/10 02:22, 172F
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09/10 09:53, , 173F
KHTML(KDE)→WebKit(Apple)→Blink(Google)
09/10 09:53, 173F
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09/11 11:27, , 174F
感謝翻譯
09/11 11:27, 174F
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10/18 15:37, , 175F
...這也鈦沒品
10/18 15:37, 175F
※ 編輯: kaoh08 (216.218.222.12), 11/29/2017 09:39:55
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